The Profile Brotherhood RC Forum banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i wanted to know my rep a little better so i wrote him a letter. here you are.

my letter is as follows;

are you in support of changing the the offending language in the proposed rule #9. do you think that adding rule #9 will make rc flight safer. and last, but deffinately not least, if the AMA is so intent on preventing accidents, then why isnt there a dedicated section in Model Aviation to help express the AMA's position on this. thank you again for your time.

bill oberdieck reponded;

I'll answer your questions with questions if you don't mind
what do you consider offending language and why?
can you guarantee 100% that a malfunction of some kind will not occur? not necessarily pilotage.
What would you like to see in a safety column.
Your answers are my concern as to how I react if and when # 9 comes up for reconsideration,if it does.
Another factor that most 3Der's do not consider. A small indoor electric powerful enough to hover indoors can put out an eye.
A 40% giant scale could take out at 3 spectators.
I presume you are a 3d pilot. How much of the responsibilty are you willing to accept.
And ask this of your pilot friends, How many even know where the safety code can be found or know its contents.
I for one have flown just about everything in aeromodeling except a turbine. And I am a full scale single, multi engine flight and ground instructor. The latter just FYI.
Please consider that the safety code is a document for all 170,000(12,300 in D7) of us to help reduce accidents.
I am looking forward to your comments.
Thank you for your interest in this subject.
Bill

i responded;

first of all, i just want to thank you for taking time to send an email that wasnt a political copy(read DB)

ok. i cannot guarentee that a servo will not glitch(and cause a malfunction) any more than i can guarantee a prop will not leave its engine during the start up of a trainer, or that a poor soul might inadvertantly stick his digit in the prop. what im trying to say is that where do we draw a line in safety regulation. i personaly dont believe that the man flying that 40% multi thousand dollar plane at zero air speed poses a risk worth creating a rule to stop him from displaying an exteme amount of diciplene in rc model airplane control. i aslo feel that allowing rule #9 to pass is just the beginning of more rules that will take away the freedom of flying 3d.

as soon as my starter hits the spinner i assume all responsibility of my aircraft. i dont understand how anyone could believe otherwise.

im not asking for anything in particular be brought up about safety, i just think that there should be a section in model aviation that would address procedures, experiences, tips, etc. im sure some members know ways to achieve safety in certain circumstaces better than others(ex. start-up procedure, range tests, battery maintenence, personal experiences of what not-to-do). it could have letters from members giving tips, the ama's view, and maybe even articles about things like rule #9 controversy. it would allow the ama to have a formal setting for safety and accident prevention that its members could be active in.

once again, thank you for your time.

and once again bill wrote;

You're welcome. I take pride in what I do as a representative of the membership of D-7.
That is the point, no one can guarrantee that a malfunction will not happen. So why push the envelope by allowing a model aircraft to be touched while in flight by someone. Secondly as for tail touching the ground or water as I have seen both, what forces are placed on the linkage,servo's connectors etc. Snap anyone of them and you have a control surface without control. Think about this, how many pilots use rudder after the plane leaves the ground. In my travels I haven't seen one in 100.The only exception is someone trying to torque rolling or hovering. But lets see that person try to fly without a rudder control of for that matter elevator.How would you land a model if you lost your elevator.
The question is not of pilot dexterity with the sticks(I only use a single stick) but how to avoid and incident. Why is it necessary to touch the rudder to the ground.Only because some TOC guy can. Whoopie.
You said you accept responsibility every time you start your engine. Lets say you are flying a 40 size trainer and for some reason you lose control. It doesn't matter what the cause is you don't have control. your plane crashes into a crowd of bystanders and some gets hurt. what happens next???? Bottom line is you get sued, the club gets sued and eventually the AMA is asked to defend you in court to pay a settlement. BUT you said you accept the responsibility when you started the engine. That being said then you should pay for all medical bills, NADA. So you see it is not just the 3D guys it is everyone. The bottom line is common sense. just like not driving your car 100mph in a school zone.This is not what you wanted to hear I'm sure. But thinking of the consequences before you do something just might make your day a little safer. And I will forward your request for a safety column for the magazine.

what are your thoughts so far on this conversation. obviously im not going to change his mind but, ill tell you what, he has more balls than DB and actually reads and writes his own letters. i basically wanted to know my reps pov on this subject.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,367 Posts
Same thing I've said all along. What about the thousands of guys who put an engine on their planes larger than the Mfgs recommendation?? Are they not courting disaster?? Has Obderkirk ever done so?? You could flutter an aileron off and crash. Absolutely no different than intentionally touching the rudder. Nada. You made a decision to put the larger engine on the plane. Your call.

Ever substitute any hardware in a kit??

Ever deviate from the plans of a kit??

If you crash, you made a descision to make those changes just as if you touched the rudder.

As long as "what if" is the mantra for changing rules, instead of "what works", there will be no end to the scenarios that could envisioned.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
889 Posts
Also,

You may want to remind him that even though a 40% 3D plane could hurt a few spectators, that a screaming turbine, or big warbird doing a low, fast fly-by, could injure just as many, if not more !

The thing that gets me about all this is they are trying to say 3D is dangerous......ANY flying is dangerous if something happens to the plane..... So they need to understand that, and not just decide the 3D is dangerous, and all the other flying is perfectly safe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
i just sent him another letter and will update the bros as soon as he gets back to me. so far he has responded pretty quickly. i just have to wonder if im the only one emailing him. oh well. i wont quit till he has i concrete answer as to why #9 would make everyone safer than watching jets, or newbies. not picking on them. jsut a fact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
btw does anyoneknow of how to find info on the ama's claims? im just wondering the # of claims that actually were filed from tail touching.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,367 Posts
According to Dave Brown, there have not been any claims due to tail touching. This is just a rule to protect us from "what if", not "what works".

FWIW, the vast majority of claims are said to be from, surprise, prop injuries.

I do not have a direct link to claims. I'm not sure if the AMA wants the general membership to know that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,754 Posts
OK, to keep everyone safe, let's make a few more rules. For one, let's put a limit on airspeed. Let's say that a plane cannot fly any faster than 5 miles an hour over it's stall speed. Next, let's put a limit on how low you can fly. I think that 500 ft. altitude should give everyone ample time to run in case something happens. Also, let's put a limit on the size of the plane and it's engine. In fact, to keep everyone from sticking their fingers in props, let's just outlaw props! Now, we can just all fly gliders! The only problem is that something could still possibly happen, an equipment failure, or somebody could fall asleep while flying their glider! Aw heck! It's all too dangerous! How about if everyone just stays home and watches TV instead!

What if the Wright Brothers had worried about what might have happened? Do you think they would have been content to ride their bicycles?

What if Henry Ford had known that millions of people would die because of his invention? Would we all be riding horses today?

The world is full of what ifs. The consequences of some are more clear than others, but the fact remains the same. The only way for the AMA to insure that nobody is going to get hurt by an RC airplane is to ban RC airplanes. Period! I like the low, fast pass of a turbine, ducted fan, or warbird. How about pylon racing? I know that it is dangerous, but so is getting up in the morning and leaving the house! There is no way that anyone can convince me that something traveling in excess of 200 miles an hour is less dangerous than a .40 size plane touching the rudder to the ground.

The concil needs to give us hard proof that tail tapping is more dangerous than any other aspect of flying, not just their opinions. If this is how they are going to represent us, then we need to get them out of office!

THE VOICE OF THE PRO BROS NEED TO BE HEARD!!!!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,115 Posts
Wow, great stuff guys. I won't bother to add any as it's all been said before. Same arguments, same points, same silly stuff. I just can't see how they can keep going back to "what if you break _____?" and "can you guarantee a malfunction won't happen?" as though he can guarantee it if you take the tail touch out of the equation. [email protected]

That part where he sugested we don't even know where to find the safety code and what's in it, that really shows what he thinks of the group fighting this. What an ego-maniac!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,115 Posts
Sjwatkins said:
800 times 58$ = 46,600$ smackers thats gotta hurt the bottom line!
While I agree with the sentiment, they know we are stuck. They pay no attention to threats of leaving AMA, especially from guys like us who love to get together all over the country, because they know we need their insurace. Even at the ProBro events, it's "AMA Required" so who are we gonna call?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
another update.

i wrote to bill:

alright, heres my point;

are we slaves to "what if"? there are so many variables as far as rules go. DB wrote to many that if we put a longer tail wheel on then we would not be in fraction of rule #9. is that safer? would that stand up in court any more than a tail touch. i just feel that this rule is bs when the pres tells us(those who have emailed him about #9) that we can get around it so easily.most tail wheels are connected to the rudder. so touching an extended tail wheel is safer?

check this out

I don't think any of us want to be put into that position, particularly when the solution is so simple......All you need to do is to extend the tailwheel back, behind the rudder, and you can touch the tailwheel to your hearts delight. You can bang that on the ground as much as you like, and no jury is going to be able to say this is negligence, or, unreasonable

can you agree with this?

and again i am still appreciative of your time and effort in our conversation

and bill replied:

Call it what if, Murphy's Law or whatever. And so far to my knowledge there has been no serious incident(hopefully won't happen) And I don't really have a problem with the expert pilot showing off. Because thats all it is.What I do have a problem with is the so-called club expert trying to do a tail touch,loses conttrol and slams the plane into a person or vehicle or whatever. I also have a major problem with having someone actually touch a plane in the hover mode.I've seen it more than once and it scares the hell out of me. So the bottom line is in order to keep the dumb thumbs from hurting someone the qualified guys also have be considered. I am open to suggestions on how to resolve the issue.
My opinion of extending the tail wheel in order to touch the tail, I don't agree with it.
Its nice to be able to discuss issues as we have. thank you for that.
Bill

and so i just emailed him back:

i have not seen any proof that tail touching is more of a hazard than any other aspect of rc flight. who doesnt enjoy the fast low pass of a turbine? who doesnt get chills watching pylon racing? i personally feel theres a much better chance of tragedy being even remotely close to either of these wonderful events. and it is the "what ifs" or Murphy's Law. we cant start making rules on what ifs. where do we draw the line?

i dont think that tail tapping is showing off anymore than any other aerobatic manuver that is practiced over and over to achieve excellence.

Dave Brown has stated that there have been no claims due to tail tapping. now im not saying that we have to wait till there is, but where is the inherent danger. everywhere. if you are at the field you are in danger of "what ifs". not because someone is tail touching.

as far as resolution of this subject:
i need proof. not opinions. i strongly feel that if rule #9 is passed, it will be the beginning of more rules to prevent what ifs.

thank you for discussing this issue with me and for taking time to write.

i do have to say, he has at least put forth an effort to spend his time to reply personaly. well see what he has to say.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,754 Posts
OK guys. The one and only sure way to make sure that somebody is listening to you is that the next time you get a ballot from the AMA, USE IT! Don't just throw it away as I always have! This will be our oppurtunity to voice our opinion, and possibly be able to cause changes! In the meantime, keep contacting the representative for your area and let him know how you feel. The more that speak up, the louder our voice will be!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
bills reply:

AAron, with all due respect. Ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you that I too deal in facts and proof. And so far no one has been able to show me any proof or factual info has not or will not cause a problem. As for the tubines and the pylons. I do have proof of incidents including a fatality in pylon and lately a heli.there have also been incidents with the turbines, but not if you only listen to the turbine guys. So I guess until proof if entered into the equation, we are at a Mexican Stand off.
Safety is no accident.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
5,109 Posts
I was going to have a private field for this years Nashville Pro Bro. NO AMA. Unfortunately the owner of the field died in a plane crash so I think that is not going to happen. RIP Jeff Newman.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,839 Posts
Keep on him, he reads like he is listening!

A few points: There are far more dangerous maneuvers and circumstances than tail touching. What makes the AMA focus on this, now? Why is DB offering us a "loop hole" with the tail wheel, if this is such an important issue? Are we less liable if the tail wheel touched and not the rudder? Why have additions to the Safety Code, when a list of liability exclusions is actually what is called for. Every insurance policy I've heard of has exclusions, why not us? Ask that the "Safety Column" include "Safety" from law suit information. Education is far better received than unfair rules. About his "facts and proof" that this is not a problem, how about a track record of ZERO claims? Hovering has been going on since the 60s or 70s and there are no claims. That is fact, and that is proof that the rule is moot.

Keep it professional and I believe you will have his ear. I have e-mailed him before. I was recently pounding on DB to make sure that he knew that "pigeon holing" the vote was not cool. It sounded like the EC was in a good, but close debate over the rule wording, when the vote was held to a later date. DB would have had to recognize a motion to table the vote, so I wanted him to not repeat this for the next few EC meetings. Now, I'm trying to hear out Dave Mathewson. He sounds promising.

Stay on D7, and keep us up to speed.

Good work!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,115 Posts
Wow that sucks Billy, sorry to hear that man. It seems silly to ask in the light of it all, but what are you going to do?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,367 Posts
BillyHell said:
I was going to have a private field for this years Nashville Pro Bro. NO AMA. Unfortunately the owner of the field died in a plane crash so I think that is not going to happen. RIP Jeff Newman.
That's not the guy in the Pitts we met at Peeler last year, is it??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
as far as keeping on him, i dont know what to say anymore. i feel like were in a catch-22. he feels the way he does, and i feel the way i do. i dont think writing him again with the same rhetoric will persuade him. if you have any suggestions i will take them into consideration. btw, Tailtwister, i already pointed out the point that there have been ZERO claims. im drawing a blank for anything else to say that already hasnt been said more than fourty-one times. thanks for the support guys. im just doing my part in what i stongly believe in. later
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top